An Interview with Dennis Baron, author of What’s Your Pronoun?

Dennis Baron is an emeritus professor of English and linguistics at the University of Illinois and the author of eight books, including Grammar and Good Taste: Reforming the American Language (Yale University Press, 1982); Grammar and Gender (Yale University Press, 1986); The English-Only Question: An Official Language for Americans? (Yale University Press, 1990); and A Better Pencil: Readers, Writers, and the Digital Revolution (Oxford University Press, 2009).

His most recent book is What’s Your Pronoun? Beyond He and She (Liveright, 2020), which Publishers Weekly called “entertaining and thoroughly documented.”

A former Guggenheim Fellow, Baron, who tweets as @DrGrammar, is a regular media commentator on the English language.

Ed Battistella: I really enjoyed reading What’s Your Pronoun?—and several of my students are reading it as well. Tell us about the “missing word” of the English pronoun system. What’s missing?

Dennis Baron: What’s missing is a third-person singular pronoun that is gender-neutral and nonbinary. The pronoun it is neuter, to be sure, but it typically refers to things, or maybe also animals. We used to use it for babies, but I think that’s not very common any more. In 1808, Samuel Taylor Coleridge suggested it as a common-gender pronoun (today we’d call it ‘gender neutral’), but using it for people is generally insulting—both desexing and dehumanizing. In the 19th century, American politicians sometimes called their opponents it. And it’s still common for political rivals to insult one another’s sexuality.

EB: I was fascinated to read about the legal wrangling surrounding women’s rights and the selectivity of the law when it came to rights versus responsibilities. Can you tell our readers a bit about that?

DB: The masculine pronoun could be ambiguous when it appeared in statutes: does he mean ‘he or she’ or ‘only men’? To try to clarify the law, England (1850), Canada (1867) and the US (1871) passed statutes which declared that in any law, a masculine word (words like he and man) referred to women as well. Suffragists seized on that inclusivity, arguing that if he in penal statutes meant that women could be punished for a crime, then he in the voting law meant women could vote. Unfortunately, judges and legislators—at the time, all of them men—disagreed. In their view, he included ‘she’ when it came to penalties like going to jail or obligations like paying taxes, but when it came to privileges like voting or becoming a doctor or lawyer, each right had to be conferred specifically to women or they were excluded.

EB: You note that top-down directives about language invariable fail in the face of usefulness. Why has singular they proved so useful?

DB: Singular they works because it is not a top-down regulation. The form has been acceptable in English speech and writing since the 14th century, appearing regularly and without comment in the works of well-respected writers like Shakespeare and Austen. It wasn’t till the 18th century that grammarians and usage critics began labeling singular they as ungrammatical. But even then, most people, including well-educated, careful writers, used the form. Today most of the major language “authorities”—dictionaries, grammars, usage guides, and publishers’ style books, accept singular they for an indefinite: Everybody forgets their passwords. Or for a member of a class: The writer should always revise their work. And more and more of them accept nonbinary they as well: Alex likes their burger medium well. Singular they is used by people who don’t give the current debates over gender any thought at all. It’s used by people deeply concerned with gender rights and inclusivity. And even people who still object to singular they use it when they’re not paying attention. Singular they comes close to being the one-size-fits-all pronoun, and it arose naturally, in popular usage, rather than being imposed by a grammarian, a law-giver, or a well-intentioned person in HR.

EB: Has there been a turning point in public acceptance of singular their?

DB: The public has accepted singular they for centuries—probably ever since English borrowed th- pronouns from Old Norse, a borrowing that occurred because the Old English third person pronouns, which began with h-, had all started to sound alike. It’s the “experts” who are now accepting it as well.

EB: I was fascinated by the number of gender-neutral pronouns you have documented, which must have taken years of research. Why do people feel compelled to invent new pronoun?

DB: People are constantly coining words and expressions. It’s part of the creativeness of language. The fact that so many people over the past couple of centuries, whether amateurs and crackpots or well-educated writers and public figures, tried their hand at inventing pronouns, suggests that there is a serious need for such a word. Only singular they has been successful, overall, but there are still a significant number of people using one or more of the coined pronouns like ze and hir, which suggests that at least in the near term, we will be dealing with multiple answers to the question, what’s your pronoun? And that’s great, since English has many ways of saying the same thing.

Remember too, though, that some people don’t want to be asked their pronouns, and others prefer no pronoun at all—just say their name.

EB: What’s been the response to your study? Have you heard from prescriptivists?

DB: Response has been favorable. Yes, a couple of prescriptivists/purists remind me that singular they is wrong, even though it’s not wrong. Others object that their freedom of speech is at stake. Both of these objections are easily answered.

Singular they no less grammatical than singular you. In fact, singular they is actually much older than singular you. Starting in the 17th century, plural you began to appear as a singular as well, pushing out the long-established singular thou, thee, and thy. When that started to happen, purists objected to singular you, calling it ungrammatical, illiterate, and ambiguous. And grammar books through the 19th century insisted that thou is singular, you, plural, long after standard English speakers and writers had abandoned thou. (Though not considered standard, the th- second person and h- third person forms persist in some British varieties of English.) Today, just as no one wants to revive thou, no one wants to go back to the days of generic he.

As for the free-speech issue, in terms of personal interactions you are free to say whatever you like, but the First Amendment does not protect you from the consequences of your speech. As for official requirements to use inclusive language, they are designed to create a non-hostile environment in classrooms, offices, and places of public accommodation, where the regulation of behavior, including language, has long been accepted as legal and useful to ensure effective human interaction. More and more businesses have discovered that pronouns are good business, and that kind of public acceptance goes a long way toward making singular they and coined pronouns a part of everyday English.

EB: What advice have you got for writers and students about using singular they?

DB: Use singular they if you feel it sounds right, and be prepared to explain it if you are questioned. Editors will accept singular they if their style guides do (the new edition of the American Psychological Association Publication Manual is the latest of the major publication guides to approve singular they both for gender-nonspecific and nonbinary referents in both scholarly writing and when dealing with clients and patients).

If your pronoun is they, your employer or your teacher should respect that. As for general “tips for writers,” many teachers may still reject singular they, though they themselves use the form all the time. Students generally give the teacher what they want (see what I did there?). They is not a hill to die on—and of course not every sentence can be recast in the plural to avoid the singular they problem. But even if a teacher suggests it, don’t go with he or she, which is a form that everybody always hated for being too long, too awkward, too repetitive, and today, too binary.

EB: What other things are you working on?

DB: I am going back to “Unprotected Speech,” a project on language and law that I interrupted to write the pronoun book.

EB: Thanks for talking with us. Best of luck with What’s Your Pronoun?

DB: Thanks.

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An Interview with Melissa Matthewson, author of Tracing the Desire Line

Melissa Matthewson lives in southwestern Oregon. She is the author of a collaborative chapbook, (un)learning, with Andrea Beltran from Artifact Press (2016). Her essays have been published in numerous places including DIAGRAM, Mid-American Review, Guernica, River Teeth, and Bellingham Review among other publications. Her first book of nonfiction, Tracing the Desire Line, is out now from Split Lip Press.
Melissa Matthewson holds a BA in Environmental Studies from UC Santa Cruz and an MS in Environmental Studies and Writing from the University of Montana, and she also holds an MFA in creative nonfiction from the Vermont College of Fine Arts.

She currently teaches at Southern Oregon University.

Tell us about your book Tracing the Desire Line? And what is hybrid nonfiction?

Tracing the Desire Line is a memoir-in-essays, 42 chapters, in which the narrator, myself, explores questions of freedom, identity, place, motherhood, non-monogamy, and marriage. It is possible to read each chapter on its own, but read together, the fragments create a whole story. There are a number of narrative layers including the exploration of non-monogamy within the context of a traditional marriage, female desire and sexuality, music, and place. It’s my first book! (Well, I hope there will be a second…). Hybrid nonfiction, to me, is the meeting place between poetry and prose—the writer uses the techniques from both genres to create exciting new texts that blur boundaries.

How do the various aspects of your work intersect—writing, teaching?

This is an interesting question! I’ve been teaching so many different courses, so it’s intersected in electic ways over the last five years of teaching college. When I was teaching English courses, I was designing 200-level courses around topics of interest: women and autobiography, the literature of environmental justice, nonfiction writing, nature writing, and all of these classes intertwined with my own writing in that the readings inspired me and the writing and reading I was doing with students informed my own craft and art. Since I’ve been teaching Communication courses, the intersections are different, though I’ve been teaching multimedia writing, which is an entirely different type of content and in the spring, I’ll be teaching environmental journalism. I think that teaching, in general, gets me excited to write my own work because I’m often discovering new ideas alongside students.

How did you become a creative nonfiction writer? Were you always interested in writing?

I fell in love with the essay when I was at the University of Montana. I credit Robert Michael Pyle for helping me to pay attention to the world and then encouraging me to transcribe that to the page. Also, I spent a semester working with Annick Smith, a Montana writer who wrote Homestead, and I knew I wanted to write a similar book to her. It’s still one of my favorite books. It’s a memoir of her buying a piece of land in the Blackfoot Valley of Montana with her husband and sons. She’s a beautiful writer and her attention to the land inspired me to write memoir. I continued to develop my essay writing as I went on to the Vermont College of Fine Arts and many of my mentors there also inspired me to keep writing nonfiction. I’m not very good at making stuff up, though I really want to write a novel. I think I’m a confused poet. And yes, I’ve been writing forever. I still have some of the really bad poems I used to write at ten.

Who do you read? For inspiration? Craft?

Virginia Woolf. Annie Dillard. Those two are my go-to if I need to remember why I love words and language. And when I need to remember how to write again. I actually just moved all of my books out of storage and Woolf and Dillard have been hiding for many months in boxes, and I’ve freed them on to my living room bookshelf, which I think will help me as I think about a next book.

You have students who are writers. What sort of advice have you got for them?

My advice is to be determined. If you love to write, keep writing. Ignore the voices in your head telling you that you shouldn’t write. Read what you love and figure out how those writers craft stories. Don’t let anyone tell you what you should or shouldn’t write. And do the work. It really does come down to writing, and writing, then writing more, and revision. I think so much magic happens in revision. That’s my favorite part of writing: when I’ve got the ideas and the images and the play comes with finding the right rhythms and syntax. And also, to be okay with not writing. To pay attention to the things happening around you and record them if you can. And remember that all voices matter and everyone has a story to tell. We are all natural storytellers. Live. If you live, you also can write.

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Literary Ashland Author Interviews 2011-2018

Check out our author and publisher interviews 2011 through 2018

2018 author interviews

Clive Rosengren and Sharon Dean Interview Each Other

An Interview with Wallace Stroby

An Interview with Kit and Cat Seaton about The Black Bull of Norroway

An Interview with Vince Clemente and Adam Cornelius on THE PALINDROMISTS

An Interview with Amira Makansi, author of Literary Libations

An Interview with Tod Davies, author of Report to Megalopolis

An Interview with Morgan Hunt, author of Bad Moon Rising

An Interview with Sandra Scofield, author of THE LAST DRAFT: A Novelist’s Guide to Revision

An Interview with Ceil Lucas, author of How I Got Here

An Interview with Roger Thompson, author of No Word for Wilderness

An Interview with Malcolm Terence

An Interview with Lynne Murphy, author of THE PRODIGAL TONGUE

An Interview with Ariel Zatarain Tumbaga, author of YAQUI INDIGENEITY: EPISTEMOLOGY, DIASPORA, AND THE CONSTRUCTION OF YOEME IDENTITY

An Interview with Kory Stamper, author of WORD BY WORD

An Interview with George Dohrmann, author of SUPERFANS

An Interview with Asya Pereltsvaig, co-author of The Indo-European Controversy

An Interview with Harley Patrick of Hellgate Press

2017 author interviews

An Interview with Robert Arellano, author of Havana Libre

An Interview with David D. Horowitz of Rose Alley Press

An Interview with Vyvyan Evans

An Interview with Sarah E. Stevens, author of Waxing Moon

An Interview with Abbey Gaterud of Ooligan Press

An Interview with Bruce Rutledge, publisher of Chin Music Press

An Interview with Jessica Powers of Catalyst Press

An Interview with Kirsten Johanna Allen of Torrey House Press

An Interview with Laura Stanfill, publisher of Forest Avenue Press

An Interview with John McWhorter, author of Talking Back, Talking Black

An Interview with Sandra Scofield

An Interview with Michael Copperman, author of Teacher: Two Years in the Mississippi Delta by Allie Sipe

An Interview with Jan Wright

An Interview with Allison Brennan, a guest post by Kelly Brennan

An Interview with Lance Olsen, author of Dreamlives of Debris

An Interview with John Enders

An Interview with Victor Lodato

An Interview with Sarah E. Stevens, author of Dark Moon Rising

An Interview with Peter Mitham, editor of Amphora

An Interview with Peter R. Field, founding publisher of the Timberline Review

An Interview with James Anderson

2016 author interviews

An Interview with Floyd Skloot

An Interview with Susan DeFrietas

An Interview with Alisa Bowman

An Interview with Vinnie Kinsella

An Interview with L L Templar, author of Rafer Thorne

An Interview with Carole T. Beers

An Interview with Jason Gurley, author of Eleanor

An Interview with Louis Sahagun, author of Master of the Mysteries

An interview with Molly Best Tinsley, author of BEHIND THE WATERFALL

An Interview with Josh Gross, author of THE FUNERAL PAPERS

An Interview with Mari Gayatri Stein, author of Out of the Blue Valise

An Interview with Midge Raymond, author of MY LAST CONTINENT

An Interview with Morgan Hunt, author of WE THE PEEPS

An Interview with Nils Nilsson


2015 author interviews

An Interview with Lisa Sandlin

An Interview with Tod Davies, author of The Lizard Princess

An Interview with Chris Scofield

An Interview with Gary DePaul

An Interview with Alicia von Stamwitz

An Interview with Louisa Burns-Bisogno and Saundra Shohen

An Interview with Ellie Alexander

An Interview with Mary Norris

An Interview with Jennifer Margulis

An Interview with John Hough, Jr.

An Interview with Ray Rhamey

An interview with Amy MacLennan, poetry editor of the Cascadia Review

An Interview with Rudy Greene

An Interview with Christine Dupres

An Interview with Precious Yamaguchi

2014 author interviews

An Interview with Nicole Howard, author of The Book: The Life Story of a Technology

An Interview with Debra Gordon Zaslow

An Interview with Kit and Cat Seaton

An Interview with Alice Hardesty

An interview with M. J. Daspit

An Interview with Mary Z. Maher and Alan Armstrong

An Interview with Michael Baughman

An Interview with Diana Maltz

An interview with Tod Davies, author of Jam Today Too

An Interview with Robert Antoni, author of As Flies to Whatless Boys

An Interview with Kate Lebo, author of A Commonplace Book of Pie

An Interview with E R Brown, author of Almost Criminal

Who Needs Newspapers? An Interview with Paul Steinle and Sara Brown

An Interview with Molly Best Tinsley

An Interview with Ben H. Winters, author of The Last Policeman and Countdown City

2013 author interviews

An Interview with Heather Arndt Anderson

An Interview with Peter Laufer

An Interview with Kimberly Jensen

An Interview with Mike Madrid

An Interview with Rich Wandschneider

An Interview with Margalit Fox

An Interview with Gail Fiorini-Jenner

An Interview with Sophia Bogle of Save Your Books

Diane L. Goeres-Gardner on Inside Oregon State Hospital: A History of Tragedy and Triumph

AN INTERVIEW WITH DAVID CHURCHMAN

An Interview with Hester Kaplan, author of THE TELL

An Interview with Ann Parker

An Interview with Jennifer Margulis

An Interview with Sharan Newman

An Interview with Diane Goeres-Gardner

An Interview with Virginia Morell

2012 author interviews

An Interview with Siobhan Kelly

An Interview with Alena Amato Ruggerio

An Interview with Ken Lewis of Krill Press

An Interview with Kristy Athens

An Interview with Clive Rosengren

An Interview With Molly Best Tinsley

An Interview with Vince Wixon

An Interview with Patty Wixon

An Interview with Jonah Bornstein

An Interview with Angela Decker

An Interview with Amy MacLennan

An Interview with Amy Miller

An Interview with Karen Clarke

An Interview with Michael Niemann

An Interview with Amy Richard and Kit Leary

2011 author interviews

An Interview with Dennis Powers

An Interview with Lisa Brackmann

An Interview with Carola Dunn

An Interview with Katharine Beutner

Interview with Steve Scholl of White Cloud Press

Epic Interview With David Lau

Interview with Dr. John Kalb

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2019 Author Interviews

Check out our 2019 Author interviews

An Interview with Curt Colbert

An Interview with Jeffrey Ostler

Robert Arellano Interviews Stanley Crawford, author of The Garlic Testament

An Interview with Irv Lubliner, editor of Only Hope: A Survivor’s Stories of the Holocaust

An Interview with David A. Oas

An Interview with Les AuCoin, author of Catch and Release

An Interview with Molly Best Tinsley–author of Things Too Big to Name

An Interview with Sophia S. W. Bogle, author of Book Restoration Unveiled

An Interview with Michael Niemann, author of No Right Way

An Interview with John Yunker, author of Where the Oceans Hide Their Dead

An Interview with Abbigail N. Rosewood, author of If I Had Two Lives

An Interview with poet and translator Martha Darr

An Interview with Tim Applegate

An Interview with Joe Biel, author of A People’s Guide to Publishing

An Interview with Christina Ward, author of American Advertising Cookbooks

An Interview with Sam Anderson, author of Boom Town

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